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Shops and the Economy

Discussion in 'Discussion' started by cheekizms, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. cheekizms

    cheekizms Fresh Spawn

    I want to start this is out by saying this is my first Minecraft multiplayer server I have played on for more than a day. I have been playing on and off since probably 2013 but always single player. I’m a very competitive person and wanted to prove to myself I could build a decent shop without having any experience in multiplayer Minecraft.

    Maintaining a shop has been a little disappointing to be real about it. I estimate 90% of my business is not from the average Joe on the server but from other shop owners. Which is fine, but it kind of feels more like a chain supplier and less like a community shop. Maybe we could add /supplier warps in the future only available to shop owners and discouraging buying out other shops.

    For instance starting the shop I had 100% of the shop chest full. That proved to be really foolish since /Time is the most cherished resource on the server. An owner can buy a shop out for almost nothing compared the coin stock they have accrued saving them hours of work. As a result of this, I keep no more than 50% of a chest full and on some items like golden apples and lanterns even at 20% . The average player might buy 20 lanterns a visit and a shop owner will buy 3,455 and I don’t blame them. As a shop owner my stock/time is more important to me than taking a tiny loss of profit or breaking even. I haven’t done the math but I’m guessing my entire shop floor stock could be fully bought out with less the 70k coins. I could personally buy my own shop out 57x and I don’t even think I’m on the high end of the wealth ladder on the server.

    Part of the problem is many players have nothing to really spend a large amount of coins on, so we all just keep growing wealth with none of it spreading out in a way that would support a healthy economy. There is too much money in the game with nothing to put it towards. Even items like spawners that have a higher value, drive down the price of other items like dyed items through the overabundance of bone-meal.

    How to help fix this? My suggestions would be add very rare items to the loot table. Get rid of /godmode. lower the amount of coins that are distributed in loot crates. My personnel favorite - add supplier warps. these haven't been given the thought they deserve but this thread isn't about suggestions.

    Conclusion is Im bored with nothing to do
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020
  2. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Active Member

    A sad reality it is. A reality that players like myself (the ones who spend absolutely no money on the server) have to face. But the fact of the matter is that without a way to translate real money into in-game money there wouldn't be much of a point in the buycraft store. To obtain in-game advantages of some sort is around 90% of the reason people spend money on his server anyway. To remove these opportunities for advantages would strip the server of its income (it doesn't take a half a brain to figure out that Dan alone probably pays for all the server expenses). Without stable server income, there'd be no way to fund the server, thus eliminating the point in it. So as sad as it may be that the server's economy is run by out-of-game bank accounts, it's a necessity, as without it, there wouldn't be a server to begin with.

    As for your idea that there should be products and services upon which larger balances spend their dough on, I completely agree. Jamm has said it himself that he doesn't want the server to be an RPG ripoff and so I have approached him with the opposite. Instead of making the server more combat-and-quest-oriented, it should be based more off creativity and economic functionality. I'm sure plenty of shopowners agree with this.

    Somewhere I read something about shop taxes. They exist, and take around ~10% off every chest shop transaction. One player -- think it was BulletIR -- suggested that the server admins and owner actually do something with that money, like a real, full-fledged economy, such as funding events, etc. Goat has made it clear that he wants this server to stand out - I say to stand out, he'd not only need to eliminate the RPG-combat-questing-boss BS as he's already trying to do, hence the postponed reintroduction of bosses, he'd need to strengthen the constructive side of things as well. (Unsure of Jamm's agenda. Hope I addressed it completely. If I misunderstood anything as to what his vision for the server is, let me know in a reply, please.)
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  3. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Active Member

    I just re-read your post and realized I didn't address everything I should have. Got a bit off-track one or two sentences into each topic. Lol.

    When I first opened my shop last map I was disappointed with the traffic I was receiving as well. As you've said, most of it was other shopowners taking advantage of my/our lower prices on materials, to later be resold at shops of their own. It took a month or two of owning a shop as well as a few straight-up explanations from Dan and other shopowners to realize, however, that though it may seem like it at first sight, owning a shop is not meant to cover your entire income, nor does it. Dan makes most of his cash off selling ranks to other players. If it weren't for this somewhat hidden source of profit, Dan would be making about as much as Hinazuk, for example, instead of being tens of millions of coins ahead of her.

    This is also the case with real-life shops. Amazon makes most of its money off of AWS, and Costco makes the majority of its dough off of memberships instead of selling actual product. My point is that shops don't act as the majority of one's income, and as such they should not be expected to host the traffic you're suggesting. They simply increase status, among other things. For Dan, Murica acts as a bit of extra income, as well as as to to sell more expensive items, like keys and, in last map's case, spawners. In CP's case Aquamart offers a bit of extra income along with a centre of community of sorts. Again, feel like I'm straying off-topic with this so I'll leave it here. Cheers.
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  4. YMbrothers

    YMbrothers Active Member

    So I finished reading the text wall. I'm not a shop owner of Map 5, but I was one in Map 4. So lemme speak.

    A server needs money to keep running. And they get it from people using buycraft. For some servers, they can do the non-pay2win approach ("win" is subjective, I'll lock you in a closet if you try to reject my statement via defining "winning" in CC only) by selling cosmetic perks, ranks that don't give unfair disadvantages.

    Problem is, this is a Survival server. Flexing stats is a much bigger concern than having cosmetic items for the majority. If that's the case, what to sell in buycraft such that people are willing to spend money on CC? Something that increases those virtual stats (that refers to money). Check the recent purchases, they're either keys or rank vouchers. They all worth a lot when you turn them into crate items.

    What am I saying here? CC, in its current state, sustains income by letting people turn irl cash to easy ig money. And that also means that you have to accept the fact that some people can just earn your 4-week hard-earned cash in an hour.

    Back to your empty-shop-problem. Yes, it's totally fine for people to spend irl money to get to /baltop or flexing their valuables, but some naughty ones will just monopolize the shop system. In your case, most of your items (tbh, for a small store, your sell prices are too cheap) can be bought out by others with the price of an In-N-Out Double-Double Combo or a dozen cans of Coca Cola. Is there a way to fix it? I thought about the approaches you guys mentioned (and some are my approaches), looks like a no.

    1. Add very rare items to the loot table
    Don't rly get what you mean. But anything u can get, people with dedication can get a hundred more. Don't see how that discourages people to empty your shop items.

    2. Get rid of /god
    Again, I don't see a reason for this. This thing is disabled in the Nether and the End. And what does /god even do? Make you invincible, end hunger, and immune to player traps. Getting tons of concrete doesn't need /god. Even if we die while collecting resources, all we lose is some gear that we can remake within 30 minutes. Plus, again, anything you can get, people with dedication can get a hundred more. /god simply makes resource gathering easier, nothing related to shop owners emptying your shop items.

    3. Lower the amount of coins that are distributed in loot crates
    Well. First, when people spend irl cash, most cash comes from selling keys, spawners, and vouchers. They don't care about that small 5-20k in the loot crates. Second, you lower the reward? They spend more irl cash to get the same rate. No big deal for people who are willing to spend.

    4. /supplier
    Don't know how it works. Are you saying that all shop owners have infinite resources? Not to mention that when most of your shop is bought out by a shop owner, they probably just want your shop to shut down, not to leech profit from you.

    5. Not allowing shop owners to buy stuff from other shops
    Make alts. Ez bypass.

    6. Limit daily purchases
    It'll be annoying for those that need tons of resources to build something. Also, make alts. Ez bypass.

    After this text wall, what am I saying? Here's a tl;dr
    Server needs money, so economy is beyond rescue. Find another purpose of playing CC, cuz sustaining a shop isn't worth your time.
  5. Algol Vela

    Algol Vela Fresh Spawn

    To get this out of the way first:
    Yup, alts giving you an unfair advantage, and the server allows for it. Told you so.

    To the topic on hand, there's not much I could add to be honest. My shop opened two weeks ago, and while the occasional private customer the shop is meant for does play a big role in it, other shop owners buying a whole shop chest at once was inevitable. Styx doesn't offer as much items that would compete with other shops, but those that do, or serve as a resource for other shops' products, are emptied quickly. Hence wither skeleton skulls and wither roses are out of stock regularly, the latter being bought the entire chest of by someone almost every day.
    As such, the actually aggrieved party here is the player base, at the cost of greedy shop owners accumulating wealth and products to gain even more wealth. And personally, I just don't understand why a virtual value that happens to be called money is so important to someone that they'd completely forget to play the actual game. Like, you know, have fun with it.
    As far as my own experience goes, I thought that making a shop was sort of a goal to achieve. Building the thing and all was interesting, and seeing it being accepted felt damn accomplished. But ever since, it's been a rather demotivating experience, and with nothing else to do anymore, I basically stopped playing at all.
    Overall, YMbrothers worded it just perfectly:
  6. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Active Member

    Both instances in which that would be the case presented by YMbrothers are completely hypothetical. Alts still make up a remarkable part of the server's economy, and even if those instances were brought to reality the pros would still outweigh the cons. Would appreciate if subjects were kept in their appropriate threads. :)

    Exactly what I've been trying to say. Guess it just didn't come across that way to everyone who read it. Shops aren't meant to cover your entire income. They never have, and never will. Players who are serious about making money find other ways of doing so - be it through villager trading, selling ranks, selling rare items, etc.
  7. Algol Vela

    Algol Vela Fresh Spawn

    The thing is, not everyone makes a shop for money. Yes, you do get the same profit from someone outstocking all your chests, but that's not the actual purpose. Some of us just want to provide players with items at decent prices. It's a community service. And that service is rendered unavailable when some other shop owner comes around to buy all your stuff to sell at higher price. I know of a shop owner who's regularly getting their chests emptied by someone, and their only option left to keep the shop running is buying back the items at higher price. For one, that other greedy player makes money off other shop owners for absolutely nothing. Second, the griefed shop owner pays just to keep their shop running. Why would they do it nonetheless? Because it's not about the money. But nobody wants to end up with a sabotaged shop that only serves to stock someone else's shop.
    And very fittingly, I log in today to find this. Guess AquaMart now sells mob heads, glowstone, and hearts of the sea.

    Edit: Yup, here they are, at higher price, just like expected.
  8. YMbrothers

    YMbrothers Active Member

    Lol, bad cp.
  9. Algol Vela

    Algol Vela Fresh Spawn

    For the sake of documentation, here's the conversation cp12cwp and me had just now. It's taken from the logs, find screenshots at the bottom to confirm the mails I got are genuine. For the mails I sent, ask him for screenshots.

    [13:43:42] [main/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] You may have read that Styx does not endorse outstocking its items for sake of reselling at higher price. As such, I ask you to return the mob heads, glowstone, and hearts of sea you now offer at AquaMart. The price will be refunded.

    [21:31:27] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] I am using the heart of the sea for my personal use, as well as glow stone. However, ye sure. Thats respectable, however Im using half the mob heads for personal use aswell
    [21:31:27] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] in all honesty it wasn't intentional to buy a stack of each I didn't realise my shift key was done until it was too late so ye. Was trynna make my $$$ bek

    [21:33:55] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] You're trying to tell me that you bought out of three chests without noticing that you spent money on a whole stack each time?
    [21:35:50] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] And I saw your chests at AquaMart for glowstone and mob heads (not hearts of the sea, I admit). It's more than suspicious that you buy those at my shop despite offering them yourself. Why not take from your own stash?
    [21:38:56] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] I'm also quite curious what personal use for over a stack of hearts of the sea might be. As far as I'm aware, the only use they serve is making conduits.

    [21:39:27] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] You don't have to believe me, Like you genuinly dont. If you want the whole stack back thats fine, Ill just grind them myself; however, why take some from stock my TEAM gathered for me, to use for my own use?

    [21:41:48] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] What level of pathetic excuse are we entering here? You say you have a TEAM that gathered them FOR YOU...? But it's preferable to outstock someone's shop that serves all players and not just you?

    [21:49:01] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] I don't know if you're aware, but I like to flex
    [21:49:01] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] I mean, I asked them to gather it for me to sell; using it for a personal project would obstruct any mutual trust I have with them as I'd be lying. Like I said, you don't HAVE to believe me, thats fine and dandy.
    [21:49:01] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] that glowstone chest has existed long before yesterday.

    [21:50:19] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] You like to flex. Wow. For your shallowness other people's shops get sabotaged. Now THAT is something I do believe instantly.

    [21:52:54] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] It's a game :) sell them cheap, expect them to be sold. I am here to have fun and if I get the chance to flex I will, if you got such An issue I wont buy from your shop anymore lmfao. I really do not mind.
    [21:52:54] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] Lmao, at least I'm not like other shop owners sending alts to ppls shops to buy shit; anyway, you gonna accept my tp or not. Trying to return the skulls.

    [21:55:02] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] Yeah I've obviously been busy with the thunderstorm. Thanks for returning. Next time you wanna flex, maybe think about how that affects regular players' ability to buy items at reasonable prices.
    [21:55:47] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] I don't think we're set in regards to hearts of he sea yet, though.

    [21:58:31] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] Well I am gonna likely use these heart of the seas once the actual spawn rates are 100% back to normal. I refuse to give them up lmao; I am using them to flex or for party mates; not to mention my shops underwater :)

    [21:59:51] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] Isn't it nice that your flexing addiction gets attended to with months of me exploring the world, and at the cost of everyone else who can't buy any hearts of the sea anymore?

    [22:02:47] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] Guess so. Guess they didn't buy them fast enough.

    [22:03:48] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] You achieved the title Summit Of Arrogance!

    [22:05:45] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [cp12cwp] I can live with that, I bought them, I'm allowed to use them how ever the flying fuck I want. Now please, since this conversation is over stop bypassing /ignore.

    [22:08:13] [Render thread/INFO]: [CHAT] [AlgolVela] Telling me to stop bypassing my own /ignore would be funny, if it wasn't so idiotic. And you don't get to say when an issue you cause is over. I for one will make sure to inform people of your tactics.​

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  10. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Active Member

    The way I see it, it's a player's choice as to how they price their items, and as such should be prepared for any traffic that comes their way - be it an average shopper or another shop owner looking to stock their own shop for a few months. When I do set a price abnormally low, it's almost expected for somebody like Walrus or Dan to come along and outstock it. I only ever set those kinds of prices when I have excessive stock to get rid of, or if the product has an outstandingly reliable and efficient source. As sad as it may be, there aren't any rules to protect people like Algol from shopowners buying everything in stock when that low price was set just to meet the needs of the community. At that point, it's up to the shop owner to ensure their prices are high enough to deter any other shopowners, yet still low enough to maintain community affordability.

    I'm not trying to defend the greedy shopowners that come in and buy everything. It's dishonest, and sets a bad name for those individuals. I'm simply trying to present fact. There are no rules that keep shopowners away from other shops, so it's up to everyone to ensure their goods are evenly priced.
  11. Mirlexa211

    Mirlexa211 Fresh Spawn

    Where to start? First off, I would like to explain something Cheekizms said that I think was read wrong. He is fully aware that the keys and vouchers are there to support the server. That was never the complaint. The issue is that the only things available to do with the in-game money we either make or purchase is to spend it on other shops. Rex had something about raising prices to deter other shop owners from buying out chests at a time. Unfortunately, that is not possible because the amount of ig money is astronomically high. Cheekizms and I earned our shop. (Mostly him. lol I just grew pretty flowers all the time. lol) And when we need to build or adjust something, we use our own supply. I have zero problem with other shop owners buying from us. I like to think of it as helping each other. To an extent. I have to say that I am amazed that the one person we were warned against has caused us zero issues. Instead, it has been a person that I considered a "friend" of a sort. This player has bought me out over and over again, no matter what I change the prices to. I don't think they even realize the prices changed. And granted, a lot of it has been put to use. But when asked why they buy when they sell it themselves, like Algol said, I was told that they didn't want to take from their own shop because they would then have to put in the effort to restock it. And this is coming from someone that told the forums that our shop was pretty lame.

    Algol also said something that rang super true to my husband and me. We REALLY enjoyed making our shop. The sense of accomplishment. The comments and advice given to us by other shop owners. We love gaming together and loved having a common goal. But now that it's done, what is there?

    Cheekizms had suggested rare loots. I can't say that i understand that exactly. But i know how he feels. I have coins that I don't know what to do with. Therefore you will often see me at the random gambling machines throwing it away. lol. I don't know how to fix it. I have no suggestions. I do have to say that I would love a command that would allow you to block certain players from buying from you. lol. But that's just wishful thinking. I enjoy the people that I have met here for the most part. I think the newer shops have great imagination and shop immense creativity. I can't decide if I like Rex or Algol's shop more. lol.

    There are shop owners that build each other up. They know who they are. They are great gamers and make gaming fun. Then there are shop owners that sic minions on others. Those are the ones that ruin the fun for others.

    ok.....novel done.
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  12. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Active Member

    Heh, thanks Mirlexa.

    Now to address a few concerns. In suggesting that players raise the prices on their goods in order to deter other shop owners from outstocking them, I wasn't referring to the amount of money they keep in their accounts as much as I was referring to the profits they'd potentially make. Allow me to clarify. If, say, Dan came along and bought out all of my concrete powder ( which I don't have an issue with btw, shops exist for a reason ) after I list it for $100 a stack, he's most likely to sell it for, say, $120 a stack. Right? Mirlexa's statement about not being able to raise the price due to astronomically high in-game currency was assuming players would buy their product anyways, no matter what. If I had raised the price to $120 a stack, Dan probably wouldn't have bought all of it out, because it was at a reasonable price, meaning if he did buy it out with the intention of re-selling it, he'd have to list it for at least $140 a stack or so in order to make a steady profit ( Thank you, sales tax! ). By cutting out the opportunity for opposing shopowners' profits, I greatly lower the risk of some walrus or avenger coming along and buying everything out.

    Aight, I know that was long, so TL;DR?
    You can raise the price of your product as high as you need, because shopowners don't buy/resell because they'll got the capital to do so. They do it to make profits. If you raise the price just enough to close that window, you eliminate the risk of another shopowner buying everything out, whilst still giving your average player a decent price. Maybe not the ideal scenario, but the way I see it it's either that or be outstocked.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2020
  13. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Active Member

    Ooooh! Right! Forgot about Mirlexa's second point, about not having anything to do with the cash you accumulate. ( Maple has recently introduced loot boxes ;) )

    I wouldn't call it as much of a lack of things to do with your money as much as it is a lack of things to do in general. I've suggested a few remedies to this boredom, but I'll compile them in a thread of their own within the near future instead of flooding up this thread with unrelated gibberish. Cool?

    Cheers for now,


    Edit: Here's the link for the thread I made.

    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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