The alt situation is out of control

Discussion in 'General' started by Algol Vela, Dec 28, 2019.

  1. Algol Vela

    Algol Vela Fresh Spawn

    The title says it all. Yesterday JFK got a fith alt. Today cp12cwp confessed to having eight accounts in total. Plus a variety of other members using alts, or at the very least, contemplating getting some. The current rules basically allow for any player to fill the server with nothing but empty copies of themselves, denying actual honest players access at times when the server is full (as it regularly happens on weekends). And everyone shrugs it off with the usual "it's not against the rules". And technically speaking, they're right. That's why the rules need to change.
    The current state is a vicious circle where players will see that alts are allowed, and proceed to make one. Then someone else will think that they need two of them. Currently we're at the cases mentioned above, but people already talked about getting an "army" of alts to their service. And while to most it may seem as a joke, someone will do it eventually. All within the rules, mind you. It's not so much the individual alting cases that need to be addressed, but the general mindset that "alts are perfectly fine". They're not, as can clearly seen by the fact that rankless alts get punished heavily and immediately. The only difference with the ones that are currently allowed is that somewhere a bit of money went to the server ‒ except the inconsistency with that system either, since alts are only checked for ranks, regardless whether the player in question paid with actual or ingame money. And that's where even the argument of "they support the server" fails.

    TL;DR: There's nothing to prevent alts spamming the server to death under current regulations.

    For the sake of the community, this issue needs to be taken care of.
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  2. Billynguy

    Billynguy Admin Staff Member

    He knows that... That's not what he's arguing.

    The main point of his thread is that alts are taking up spots on the server during prime server hours like stated above. He doesn't believe its fair for inactive accounts to take up slots of active players of the community.
  3. Billynguy

    Billynguy Admin Staff Member

    We've talked about this issue a couple of times, and we've decided to change nothing so far. Most staff members agree with you that alts taking up slots on the server during prime server hours is not the most ideal scenario. However, we're more focused on expanding player slots than sticking with the 50-70 slot range. However, if we cannot expand past that then we'll look into the alt situation, and it'll most likely be modified in some sort of way in the future. We'll get community feedback before we make any changes to the rules pertaining to alts since this issue affects several players around the community.
  4. cp12cwp

    cp12cwp Active Member

    I have several alts yes but do you see more than 2 at a time on? No. It's just more convenient for party allies, kits and afking and I haven't seen us his the cap in a while so I don't see why you are complaining lmao. The only time I had 4 accounts on at once is to ss it but it was not during prime and tbh you are the only one to complain. A easy solution would just be making a rule to no more than 2 accounts on at a time which I do anyway so it wouldn't effect me but jamm would likely get a lot of hate for removing a lot of ppls accounts. 98% of the time I only have 1 acc on

    P.S. I only have like 7 not 8 xD
  5. http_elliott

    http_elliott Fresh Spawn

    If a rank is bought ingame it technically still supports the server because someone would have had to have bought that rank to trade it. I agree with the server having a small capacity meaning there shouldnt be mass alts on. Having yourself and 4 alts on takes up 1/15 of slots just for one person. But there isnt much harm for having just one alt on at a time.
  6. cp12cwp

    cp12cwp Active Member

    I never have more than 2 on at a time but it's to get vp then log off
  7. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    -1. Alts are great.

    I'd like to start off by repeating CP's point that though I personally haven't been on in a few days, the server hasn't hit its maximum capacity in days, even weeks. That being said, I think the capacity should be increased anyway as the server grows. That's besides the point, however.

    Alts, though I don't have one as of right now, are pretty useful. They can keep farms running for long periods of time, give their users multiple of each kit crate, and can help the server with acheiving vote party among other things. Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but it seems the only problem you've got with alt accounts is that they take up too much space in the server's player capacity. I'm sure that once Jamm sees this he'll start working on increasing the player capacity if he isn't doing so already, leaving no reason for y'all to be in favour of an alt limit. Again I skimmed through a lot of this, so if you've got more negative arguments somewhere in here that I've just missed, please let me know.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  8. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    Seriously?
    Nobody's talking about rankless alts. They're banned immediately and that's that.

    If you're referring to ranks being traded for in-game money making them ingenerous you're being illogical. Someone somewhere still has to drop five bucks on an Iron rank, for example. It doesn't matter who buys it off said player, that five dollar bill still goes into Jamm's back pocket.
  9. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    Yes, it does.
    Ranked accounts and donor accounts are the exact same thing. Unless you're talking about staff ranked which is completely off-topic, then be specific and use your words properly.
  10. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    I could make a YouTube video and react solely to the bullshit you're spewing.
    That's hardly the defenition of a vicious cycle, Algol. In fact a
    player seeing that something is legal, then doing it is how a server works. And joke or not, you're still only speculating that someone's gonna take that seriously. I doubt anyone has the time, patience, money (be it in-game or otherwise), or the right hardware to run an "alt army" you're suggesting. The cons outweigh the pros in that scenario, as you'd need either an extra heavy-duty computer to support an "army" of accounts or multiple devices to host these accounts.



    Bruh...

    When any account spams anything it's called a mute. Alts aren't exempt from any of the rules us normal players have to follow.

    To be honest I could go on, but it'd be illogical to as I've provided multiple reasons to keep alt numbers unrestricted and I can't seem to come up with any valid arguments to oppose myself.

    As a side note I don't mean to come across as toxic. I'm simply debating this, so please don't take it personally.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  11. Algol Vela

    Algol Vela Fresh Spawn

    Whew, for some reason no email notifications this time and now there's a wall of text. Here we go then.

    That's the most obvious point, but of course alts give their owners a general unfair advantage over other players, which is exactly why rankless alts get banned immediately.

    We're talking about the difference between rankless and ranked alts. Why is the unfair advantage of having alts suddenly no problem anymore because they have a rank? As you explain yourself here:
    Note that alts aren't allowed to vote. On the other hand, they do receive vote party crates.
    As far as the "having someone helping you out" part goes, the traditional solution is having friends. Just these days I lent part of my farm to kaneki, who at the same time happened to keep my carrots loaded and growing. Win-win situation.

    Ah yes, you're actually right about that. You don't have to pay for a rank specifically, even when winning them from a crate you had to get your hands on the key for that somehow (I'll agree that winning gift cards is neglectable ‒ it's a gift from Jamm then).

    That's not the kind of spam I was referring to. Muting people is a chat issue, alts take up space on the server.

    So maybe I'm the paranoid one here, or maybe it's that nobody else sees the fundamental problem. So to anyone who doesn't think it's an issue, let me share some personal experience on the topic.
    The last online game I used to play theoretically had a strict rule against it's counterpart to alts, but was neither willing nor able to enforce it. For a while, it worked. A year after the game started though, it was overrun with bots running over proxies, largely multiplying the impact of a single user. The story ends with a nazi eradicating everyone's work and essentially killing the game with his 10.000 proxies. (Source: pixelcanvas.io)
    So I know this is a different game, different staff, different technical environment. But all the same basic flaws apply here too: alts are possible, nothing stops you from making more (except your financial resources, which isn't an issue for everyone), and a larger number of people playing the game. Maybe it doesn't happen now. Maybe not even next year. But we're one the way there already, and some day there will be one individual who just doesn't care about anything, and wants everyone else to have their work destroyed. And then everyone happily using alts right now will wonder just how we got there. I for one just hope that staff will be able to react then at least.
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  12. cp12cwp

    cp12cwp Active Member

    I mean Jamms had this server for what like 7 years? And he is doing fine I don't see an issue into restricting something that only you have an issue with
  13. phobosmoon

    phobosmoon Member

    I will be the one to play devils advocate here . as usual :p
    While i understand both sides of this divide . i will speak for the un-ranked and un-forum'd users because they are under-represented here.
    Attack my spelling and grammar as is the trend , but please hear the point it conveys for the sake of this post and the users it represents.

    As a new player , everything from joining the server to starting a shop are effected by the use of alts ,
    to multiply influence and action this way creates a immediate divide between the un-ranked and the power users.
    serving to stratify the social hierarchy in the server. The economic effects are similar in that a small time shop cannot compete with the combined effect and holdings of a string of alts. nor can average users break into this power structure anylonger ,To be part of the group as it were ,
    An elite class is formed , and the pay to play culture proliferates ...Certainly a common story ..

    At least half of the active players at any given time are un-ranked . they make up a substantial demographic , but their interests are not often represented.
    this post is a echo of the original . A reaffirmation that there are those who feel this way .
    ~moon
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  14. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    Hi Moon!
    I'd like to start off by saying that un-ranked players are yes, in fact underrepresented but not always because of their not having of a rank. While again, yes, around half of the players online most of the time are un-ranked, many of them are users who have just recently joined the server. Only a few of these players plan on staying and the ones that do make it into the donor ranks quite quickly if they put their mind to it. This fact not only justifiably disqualifies players who are here to just look around (of whom there are many), it helps to create a bit of a common ground between ranked and un-ranked players as the serious players who are un-ranked... won't be for long, if they're serious enough. You can take me, for example. I started out as an un-ranked individual, as did we all. I worked for a few weeks and bought my first rank off of Dan. While this was the only rank I had payed for myself, I still would have purchased the other two on my own if it weren't for a lack of people willing to purchase that rank for me, in exchange for the in-game money I had. Eight months and one map reset later I've accumulated enough wealth that I could purchase 3 alts if I wanted to and still have enough money to keep my shop above water, all without having spent a penny of my own money on this server, mind you. In saying all this I'm not trying to brag about my success. I'm simply trying to make it clear that you don't need to be well off in the real-life bank to own multiple alts. That all being said, I'd still be open to ways for newer players to earn a living.
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  15. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    Whew. I appreciate your dedication to this debate.
    First off, to address your issue with alts needing to be donors.

    It took me a while to see past this one as well, but the reason Jamm implemented this donor/alt rule isn't to make a profit. That's just a bonus for him lol. It's to keep players from creating so many alts that a capacity issue would be relevant. If a player needs to pay for an alt, they're less likely to get one, as it would cost them. If a player doesn't need to pay for an alt, then what's gonna stop them from making... 17?

    Now to address your issue with an alt army.

    1. If you wanted to make, say 10,000 alts like you're suggesting, that'll cost you a hefty $500,000 USD, which is just ridiculous as nobody's gonna do that, no matter their financial background. It's just not worth it.

    2. If you wanted to make an army of alts, you'll need somewhere to put them, as I've said before. In order for such an army to have such an effect you'd need some hefty hardware - something that can run the proposed dozens or even thousands of alts like you're suggesting. Again, it's not worth it, as nobody's gonna waste a beefy computer on filling up enough slots to have a significant impact.

    3. You need someone to control these alts. For this bit, I'll just quote Walrus, as it'll help my case with both this and the second argument.



    There you go. And according to walrus over here we haven't hit the cap in a while. Like I say, if the issue becomes a real issue and alts do start to fill up the server capacity we'll address it. Until then, I don't see much to worry about.

    Before I go I'd like to address your concerns with 10,000 or so accounts joining the server. It's not gonna happen. Why? Cause it's already already happened. In case you haven't seen Discord lately, there have been literally ten thousand accounts logging on and spamming the hub a bit. We've seen how the server handles these thousands of accounts, and aside from the unfortunate muting of the hub, nothing explicitly negative has emerged from this incident. I haven't been on in almost a week now so I could be wrong about all of this, and if I happen to be spitting the wrong facts my apologies, but you're free to check the number of unique joins in the hub. From what I've heard it's skyrocketed.

    Thanks for staying civil throughout this ongoing debate. Though we've got different views on this issue, I can appreciate how you're setting yourself aside from others, as most people these days just tend to scream around their opinion without providing fact.
  16. phobosmoon

    phobosmoon Member

    "he doth protest to much , methinks"
    it is entirly possible to use a network of bots distributed over several ips using a coordinated and central controller( a botnet) to get around this rule of course .
    Your army of bots would require only the accounts and knowledge to distribute the signal .
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
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  17. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    Wut lol
  18. phobosmoon

    phobosmoon Member

    its a quote from shakespeares hamlet
    (modified with "he" instead of a female prefix )
    in the play it was used to point out a exagerated concern of one of the characters,
    in this case im using it to highlight your implied support for alts.
    keeping things civil <3
  19. RexTheGreat37

    RexTheGreat37 Trial Helper Staff Member

    Lol, I just enjoy writing and debating, provided things are kept down-to-earth and unbiased.

    ;)
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  20. phobosmoon

    phobosmoon Member

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